Zac Clark's Comeback Story Pt.2

00:00:10 Speaker 1: All right, welcome back, everybody. We are here for another episode of Comeback Stories. Today's guest he's back for round two. Zach Clarks. Zack's the founder and CEO of Release Recovery and New York based addiction and mental health recovery program and founding member of Release Recovery Foundation. Zach's platform grew when he won ABC's reality show The Bachelorette in twenty twenty. He's a South Jersey native and a crazy ass Philly fan, but most importantly to Daryl and Birds, he's one of our best friends and someone that's doing unbelievable work in the world right now. So welcome back to round two. It's up, boys. I need this, I mean forget the I mean like, I'm happy to talk to you guys anytime, but like I need to see you. So it's good to connect. Connecting in the flesh. A time we connected was New York or we're out here. One time in Vegas together we did Rufous in the summer, and then I was out here for a game. Yep, that crazy Cardinals game. I don't want to bring up bad memories, but amen, you live and we learned. You know what I'm saying amen. Yeah, good Toko Madera vibes afterwards. Yeah, we were there last night, Donnie with a bunch of I'm home in town for a conference for behavioral healthcare conference. So we had about twenty people over the Donnie swelling through. It was cool, swarming through and ate a whole lot of food. That is my favorite spot. Yeah, it's good, take good care of us. Yeah, so we wanted to have you back, um, just really selfishly, I think, for Darren and I to connect with you. But um, the first interview we did with you was in New York City, was a live eventum that we did in your neck of the woods. We I led a little yoga, Darren led a little serend serenaded everybody in Shavasano with a beautiful song, and uh, we did the live podcast interview. And so you can go back and listen to the depths of Zach's story in part one and part two, we might allow you to give like the cliff notes version again and then we're just going to riff and talk and talk about what's going on in life, what we're struggling with, and try to keep it real, raw and vulnerable. On here, like we like to do. Don't you start, don't you teach me to start with what's going good? And you're gonna go right to struggling on me. No, let's go there what is going good? So, yeah, that's something very important I think in the coaching that we do. And Zach started as one of my coaching clients, so did Darren and now there are two of my best friends. But that is what we talk about, what's going well. And the reason we always talk about what's going well is because we're so used to talking about what's not going well. So when we talk about what's going well, it's like starting your day in gratitude. What you focus on grow stronger. So when you focus on the good, usually more good happens in your life. So we always talk about the good, but then we always go, Okay, what are you struggling with what's not going well? And it's not failure because in the not going well, there's like amazing opportunities for growth when we shine the light of awareness or bringing to the light what we're struggling with. Right, So, really that growth mindset, it doesn't allow us to ever be the victor and or feel like we're failing. We're just going to learn a growth from it. But let's not go there. Let's go what is going good with you? New year, new energy. I mean, I've never been someone that's into all the hallmark like the New Year that this, But for some reason, this year did feel like a reset for me. It felt like a reboot. Last year it was gnarly, it was not fun. There was moments of twenty twenty two when I was not happy, not centered, not focused, just that brain that was moving in a million miles a minute, you know, in every different direction. And that was you know, around relationships and work and all that stuff when it all kind of came crashing down. And so what's going good right now is I was able to clear a lot of energy at the end of the year and really really reboot and repurpose and refocus, you know, really going back to the drawing board professionally and understanding that I believe my purpose on this planet is to help people who suffer with mental health, suffer from substance use disorder. I know what the world tells me anytime I, you know, put up a basic ass picture of me at an Eagles game or whatever, it is I'll get a couple. You know, Oh this is fun and you look good. But when I put that meaningful content out there, that's what the world responds to, you know. And so when if I'm really listening and I'm really taking in the energy, I know that that's what I need to be focused on. And so from a business perspective, we're experienced in some pretty exciting growth. We're going to try and help some more people, you know. And like the other thing, you know, Donnie, you and I talked about, like in twenty twenty two, man like I I didn't try to meet anybody. I didn't date. I don't talk about that stuff often. But I think we were talking earlier in the year this year and I said, I went on two dates in twenty twenty two, which is like crazy and left to my own devices, I'll, i'll, I'll lean into that for another five years. I want, I want to ask you. So it's like for me, I know, I'm somebody that just will isolate. That's fine, that's my nature likes to put it push everybody at arm's length. And I still battle that to this day. Like how do you find the balance of um protecting yourself and and and you know, being picky as you should about who you go after dating wise, but also like not isolating yourself, Like how do you find how do you go about finding that middle ground? I guess yeah, I mean when I talk about twenty twenty, it's a great question, right because when I think about I talked about twenty twenty two, some relationships that that I had to let go. They weren't romantic, you know, those were like relationships that were long standing and and and and pretty you know, special, but things happen in life, and I had to make a really hard decision to kind of move past some of that stuff. And so I think what that did for me is it just gave me the permission to not trust people even more, you know, because I feel like this stuff's happening to me. And at the end of the day, like one of the things we work on, Donnie, is like I have the power to make the decision and get out at any time, no matter what it is. But like I always laughed there because, like, you know, we were at this Rufus concert the summer, and we were having a good old time, and like it was a crazy dynamic because I'm walking around with Darren, like every twenty two year old fantasy football bro is coming up and asking him for a picture. And then like I got these girls who like watch The Bachelor coming up and ask me, and I'm looking at him like, what the what happened to our lives? Bro? What planet are we living on? But like that, even that shit has has changed the way I see the world because when someone comes up and ask me for a picture, right, it's like, Okay, what's your name? How are you? I want to humanize it, but I learned really quickly that they don't give a shit about anything but being able to take that and have that asset and go send it out to their group chat or their mom or whoever. It is so like I would turn it back on you too. It's like, however, you may be able to find that balance, right, like, because I saw it firsthand, these guys running up there, Yo, I gotta get a picture from my face. I'm like I felt like saying, like, dude, why don't you say hello? Like he's a he's a human being? Right right? Yeah? I mean it's it's tough for me too, because I kind of have that mindset of like where I'll see people. I'll see the way people look at me, like they'll be like like it'd be people like whoever watches the show. There's a glass right here and people are like up against the glass, like like it's like like like a lions in here, like where the zoo or something. But I try to get myself out of that mode to where it's like, oh, they want something, and I just like kind of like whoa. I'll lower my head and I'll walk by people or like speed by or if somebody'd be like, oh, you're such a such and I'll be like, nah, it's not me, Like I just closed the podcast here, like no that. But but yeah, it's tough. It's just catching myself when I want to go that route of like I don't want to connect with them. I know they're trying to get something from me, but like instead just like give it a chance. I guess because some people are are genuine, you never can control when they are or what their intentions are. But if somebody does come in and ask like, oh, you need a picture me a picture old Raiders, this Raiders, like who's your quarterback going to be? I'll just be like, well, who are you? Like, what are you doing in Vegas? Like do you live here? Do you so? And try to start a conversation from there because that's where I'm most comfortable. I don't do well. I get creepy and my skin starts crawling when it's just like surface level, like well, what about the Raiders in twenty Like I don't fuck about the Raiders in twenty twenty three. Yeah, I'm I'm enjoying my off season right now, right, so just try to turn it in a direction to know, like I can have power over the direction, over the conversation instead of just going in thinking people are just trying to use me even if they are, Like I can change the perspective. I guess, Yeah, I mean I try to see I see it. I try to see the good in every situation and lead with love, right like I don't. I was down at uh SO So there's this UM placed down in Tennessee called on Site. A lot of people go there for like these five and a half day UM and into kind of psychodrama workshops. And I took some of our leadership team down there at the end of the year, and one of the therapists leading the session kind of led the whole couple of days. She said to us. You know, when you walk out into the world and you really think about it, like if you knew the other person's story, Like if you really knew what was going on, you would never be mad. You know, if I live my life that way, and I truly choose to not know what's going on with you and you and whoever else, Like maybe that picture is going to make their day, their month or week, and if I can be of service in that moment, and then let's do it, you know, and move on. But it does it feeds my trust issues and like as someone I think our common bond and like our shoulder to shoulder shit here is like we all suffer from or did suffer from, a substance use disorder in my disease as they like to call it, for lack of a better word, wants me alone to your point, to your question, like alone in a black room with a need in my arm with no one around, Like that's what that's what this thing wants me. So I can go back to that without the drink and the drugs very easily if I'm not centered facts. I'm just thinking back to God, so much is coming up for me in the middle here of that night at the concert. And then so there's your guys' perspective, and then there's my perspective where I'm like, whoa, this is so interesting, Like watching these people and watching their energy. And two girls walk by and one whispers to the other one and then they kind of don't walk away and they're standing like three feet away and they keep looking back. I'm like, wow, And it just gave me so much more empathy for you guys and what you deal with on a daily basis, and I share the story and having opportunities to be with you around here or wherever, and being like, wow, I don't want that world. I don't like I have compassion for you guys where most people will put you on a pedestal and be like I want that life. And I'm like, not me. I like kind of my position that I'm in. But I all so think it calls for the responsibility to have empathy for the people that are coming up to you because they're really in a trance. They see you, they kind of get hijacked into this trance because they're not aware of what's happening. And it's a big moment for them, and whether it's for them or if it's for them to share with everybody else, Like you said, this might make make their whole day, make their whole life. I mean, we see people standing out here and they wait until the podcast is done, and and I guess you never really know, And I like the analogy that you use. You don't know their story. But I think there's balance there. But I always say to Darren, especially like you have more tools than I believe ninety nine point nine maybe one hundred percent of the entire NFL. You can you can handle it. You know. It doesn't mean I don't feel for you, but I know you can handle it. And I think it's that's just the practice. Yeah. I think it comes back to, you know, knowing that I don't have to let somebody else dictate the energy of a conversation or of any kind of interaction. But most of my life I was so used to like making myself. I already make myself small by myself that it's like just to like fit like if somebody's dictating a certain energy, like I'll just like kind of make myself small and not be seen or not like be you know, try to even interact with the energy that's there instead of knowing, like you know, I have the power to with me and who I am and how I show up, Like I can curve this conversation, not like hard and abruptly, but like naturally, just curve it into a lane or into a way that I want the conversation to go. And I know in the end that they'll like where that conversation went too, because they'll feel seen and they'll feel heard, and we both will feel that way. But I can still catch myself a moment's being quick to just like not this again, like not this, not just the football stuff again, instead of like I had to be super intentional, of like I can participate in curving this conversation to where I want it to be. It doesn't have to be what they bring to the conversation, Like I can always have a response to that kind of energy. It's almost like avoiding even the victim mentality in those interactions. Yeah, I'd definitely be a victim in those I mean rightfully so at times. But I think that's why having tools to protect your energy and continuing to find your center is like the non negotiable and the must have in this world that you live in. Both of you guys, Well, it's crazy. I mean, like, you know, I've hung out with you guys a bunch now, and like ninety eight percent of my conversations with Darren Waller ain't about football. It's not about football, right, it's not about me on television, Like we're talking about real shit, having like hanging out like and that is so beautiful to me in my friendship with you and my friendship with Donnie is that like on the flip side of that, I have found some really beautiful people in this process that I've been able to connect with quickly. And I cherish that shit. And like so we say, right, there's balance in the universe and for every one of those kind of crazy interactions, like who knows if I'd be sitting here with you guys if I didn't, you know, take some of the chances that that I took in the crazy part for me, And like I don't, I don't know, man, I don't. Maybe I got to look at it in therapy or some shit, but I don't. I don't talk about like my experience on television much for whatever reason, And we've We've talked about this a little bit um and I rarely do a public I don't know why I'm feeling, probably just come comfortable with you guys or whatever. But then the number one question I get is was it real? Like? Was it real? Was the show real? Was it? You know? Because like and I always kind of stop and say, like, yeah, it was real, Like I was there right, this is that was my life at that moment in time, Like of course it was real, like the love was like everything was real. And I think that perspective for me comes from having lived this life for twenty seven years prior to getting sober, where I lied every single day. And so whether I'm on TV talking to my mother, leading a team meeting at work, like I know that I can't afford to lie or I'll be dead, Like I you know, I gotta tell the truth. That's part of the part of the deal here with this new life that I'm living. And I think that was one of the biggest blessings because you talk about the tools, right, like you talk to Darren about the tools and tools. So like for me being in that position where I'm going on TV and I can I can pretty much make myself wherever the hell I want America to see. But like my best intuition and gut tells me to just be Zach because on most days I like myself and I'm proud of myself, and so I'm gonna roll that out there and just be real and be authentic. And that's what I've got. That's why I think we've connected. You know, would you say that the good reason or the main reason why you won the show was because you were real and were because we were talking about producers were trying to get you to say certain things and you're like, I'm just saying I don't think. I don't think, well, one, there's something that doesn't sit right when someone says one, right, because like for me, like it's all good. I mean, like that's just me, Like you know, that's my own shit. Um. I think I had a good experience, Um, because I had the tools. Like I was I went on I was thirty six years old, I was eight years eight eight nine years sober, Like I was pretty well adjusted at that point in time to the world. And uh, there was a lot of things there that were very comfortable to me, like talking about my feelings being honest, being open, telling my story, you know, and like, how much of a dumpster fire would that have been if like it gets to a moment in time on television where I get to tell my story and I lie about it because there's people out there that watch and that know the truth, you'd have to live with it. And that's how you burn shit down, just lying for no reason. So yeah, I mean, I think, Look, the truth is in my existence today at thirty nine years old, is that everything in my life stems from my recovery. Everything, and if I throw that shit away, it's all gone. So whether it's you know, leading a business, running a marathon, being here with you guys today, all my relationships, I'm like, it's stems from the work I've gotten to do and in recovery, you know, my supports, my meetings, my people, my therapy, the stuff that I've done to get well. Yeah, I mean, I was talking to my therapist yesterday about you know, there's a lot of good things in my life, but I still like, I don't see it a lot from a perspective of living in abundance. Right, There's so many things going on, so many things that I'm a part of and I'm like, like, these are the things that recovery has given me. But sometimes it's still hard to stick to the principles, stick to the tools, and just and still feel that motivation to do them because you know, these things are grabbing for our attention. You know, it's like I don't think we were meant to or wired to or I mean we definitely weren't taught to be able to handle all this success, all these opportunities while still being diligent and recovery principles. It was either like success was the answer. You know, success was everything, And it's like now I'm like, you know, success is it's cool if it's impacting something, if it's impacting other people. But you know, I don't ever want to find myself leaving what got me here, And sometimes I can I can feel that poll and it's it's like, but I'm glaateful. I still have that sense of urgency to bring me back, And I don't know how much do you guys still struggle with sticking with that in the midst of like, oh, all these things are popping up, like, but I need to stay right here and what's got me here in these principles in these things, Like what's that like for you guys? I from a personal standpoint and from a coaching standpoint, we've probably done this exercise, maybe we have defining your own It's called defining success. And I think so many times we base our success on other people's and so we're measuring it against theirs, which is like it's a setup for failure. Right, So, like when we can create our own definition of success, and I think we need to do that every maybe year, because it can change and it can shift. But like not what society says we need to have in place in order to be successful, but like your own definition and getting super clear on that, which is usually rooted in our values. And our values are like the essence of who we are, and we can ultimately make every decision based on those core values. So it's like knowing what success looks like for you today or for me today is probably the most important thing. Doesn't mean I'm always successful, but at least I can drive towards the things that matter and not be like pulled or distracted by the thing that you know, our world is paying billions of dollars for us to believe this story of you'll be successful when you have this, or you'll feel like you're enough when you have this, And so we got to define that our own definition. And a lot of that comes even sitting in meditation and quieting the mind and actually listening to some of the bullshit that's telling us otherwise, because it's in that awareness where we can like let those thoughts go. If you're a meditator or you're trying to meditate and you say I can't meditate, my mind never stops thinking. It's not about that. It's more about noticing what you're thinking about, and those inspiring thoughts that I have in a meditation, I'll hold onto the other bullshit I can let go. And it's just cultivating that awareness, I think more than anything. Yeah, I mean, for me, so much of the way I feel is based on how like if I'm in the work or not. And it's not a fun place to be, like living in this world without doing the like like getting pulled on all those directions and forgetting about the thing that got me here, which is that that recovery piece. And you know, I define success in its purest form for me, and you know this because we talk about it is just being happy, And like I spent a good deal of twenty twenty two not being happy. And at the end of the day, like I was giving my power away to other people, places and things, and I had to take that ship back. And you know, it's funny because this morning, so like one of the big things I'm on right now is like dopamine and the brain, and like I'm reading and taking in everything that I can about dopamine. And it's funny because we were gonna talk this morning at this conference I'm out at and this guy Jim Vanda, Hey, I think he's a he's a media mogul Axdeos Politico, like has had two pretty successful sale and whatever. He was talking about how the average human checks her phone two hundred and sixty times a day, two hundred and sixty times a day. And I'm guilty of that. And I know on my bad days what I'm searching for is a like a comment, a text, an email, a miscall from the world to validate Zach that he's a good guy. Yeah, And like what does that matter if I don't actually believe that, And so like when I'm not in the work right to your question and i'm not living a successful which for me means happy life, then I'm checking that phone five hundred times a day and I'm searching for some shit that's just not there, and if it is there, I'm not actually going to feel it. But when I'm dialed in, I mean, dude, that's when it's good because like I could throw something up on social media or send an email and make a phone call and I'm in the flow. I'm in the flow of life. I'm going to text you say yo, have a great day. I'm gonna hit you up, like it just comes naturally, it comes easy, and I know what that feels like. So that is success for me, like being in that flow, being happy and fortunately like at this point in my life at thirty nine years old, like I feel like I am getting to a place where I know how to get back to that and sometimes it ain't easy, but I can get there. How do you get there? So typically when I'm not there, I'm gonna avoid you and any work with you. I'm gonna avoid the therapist, I'm gonna avoid the other mentors that I have in my life that are kind of keeping me in the work. So digging back in there, But it's little shit. It's like waking up earlier. It's making sure that I'm hitting my knees and praying in the morning. It's making sure I'm taking time to get quiet, you know. And I can do that at any point day, right Like I can walk into the bathroom meditate for five minutes and no one no one's gonna know. But the biggest thing that usually pulls me out of it when all else fails, man, is service. Think of other people, Think of other people, call other people, Go donate in my time, Go show up for someone else, Go do something I don't want to do. Make one of those nos a yes. And slowly, when I start to be of service, I find myself thinking about zach Less and other people more. And that's where I want to be because that's where life is good. But your whole life, if I'm thinking about your day to day, most of it is service. So where's the balance between Like, I mean, you're doing it all day long in your business, right, So, like, how do you find that balance? You know? I always think about your life living in New York City, and I also think about you being I don't want to say, like a nobody but not somebody that a lot of the world knows. And then you go to Palm Springs, you go on the show, and you come back and you go are thrusted back into New York City, and all of a sudden, you're a celebrity. Like your your belief system and how you see the world and how the world see you sees you changed overnight. Yeah, I mean I think I think I still consider myself a nobody because I don't know what if somebody is right, Like, that's that's what I still like. I try to view myself and I try to take not take myself too seriously, right, Like I try to trust the world and walk around and just act as if um. But it's tough. I mean, prior to any experience on television or anything like that, like I had a I had a successful business, like I was already helping people. I had a big, beautiful life, like I was going to my you know, Philly sporting like everything was kind of in place. But and for me, the reality was like this thing came down the pike at like in the middle of COVID, like no one was doing shit. So I got this phone call. I'm like, yeah, why not like why the hell not right? And so um, I do feel like I need to look at that probably Donnie. You know, it was like what does that mean? Like why can't I slow down and kind of put my oxygen mask on first sometimes? And what does it say about me that I'm kind of like sometimes overgiving, you know? And then I like I probably I struggle with boundaries around that stuff, you know, and like am I trying to shove something down by trying to just be a service all the time. So it's like there's a balance like anything else in life. But I love what I do. I love what I do. I don't feel like it's work. Like I get to work with some of the most amazingly talented people, a bunch of dogs that have like come back from the ashes and like just want to like fly our flag and go help people. And you know, the company I run has grown. I mean we got like seventy something employees. Now we're about to open our first clinic like treatment center up in in in April and April first, I mean we're up to like sixty five. So like we're rolling and we're helping people. And on most days it doesn't feel like work. I mean, I love the perspective that you have on on serving people. And I mean I mean if you're an addict or you're not, like we're like a self centered culture or like a self centered world. And it's like, I feel like most of the time that self centeredness comes from like us trying to feel that void like you were talking about, like the like or the comment or something out there that's gonna make me feel better and here. And it's like we do that enough to where that's all we think about. But like the service, like the service work is literally like it makes you forget that that void is there almost like and it feels it like in an authentic way, like I'm not I'm not here to make myself a bit. I'm here to do a work that inspires and leaves a legacy. And in doing that, that void is fieled because the things I was looking for for that void weren't even really gonna fill me up in the first place, right, And it's like, I I still forget that sometimes because it's like, you know, I my career so demanding, or I gotta do all these different things, and it's like when the service opportunity comes up. I may be tired, I may be worn down. I maybe wanted to try to go be alone. And it's like, I gotta remember, like what that service work is all about, because here I am not wanting to do the thing that is gonna make me feel fulfilled, but I want to go and do the thing that's gonna keep me longing, keep me empty, keep me thirsting and starving. And that cycle is never gonna end. So it's like for the people out there that are like trying to find a like why service, like, I'm not really it's not really clicking for me. Like the thing our life is meant to be bigger than us, it's meant to be bigger than what I feel, what I want, what I think, and I just don't feel like the world's really moving in that direction. But you know, that's why why are we here. You know, if it's us three at least moving one step closer to that in that conversation and getting somebody to think differently about that, then then that's the service work we're doing right here right now. Yeah, I feel like service also doesn't need to look like going into some third world country and you know, saving the world your service or your purpose right now might be to be a mom to your children, and that's your work. There's also service in terms we've talked about this a little bit, where service can often sometimes it's not actually service, it's more helping, and it's it's bypassing, bypassing the actual void, the work that needs to be done. And so we'll get busy, we'll get busy, and we'll go do other things, but we haven't done our own work. And oftentimes we think we're helping, but we're actually getting in the way because we're not. We haven't done our own work. True service is when we can see see each other as equals and see my darkness and your arkness, even though my pain might look different than your pain. But that is true service. But I think it does take like you have to work on yourself before you're going to go out there and save the world, where oftentimes you can be getting in the way. It's like an enabling parent of a drug addict, like my mom, blinded by love, probably had her own stuff, right, so she took it on and she thought she was helping, but she was just building my bottom or digging my bottom a little deeper. Yeah, I mean I happened to you know, like Darren, you work in a field which is based on numbers, right like I work in a field that's really based on numbers, and mine, like our numbers right now in our country when it comes to mental health and substance abuse, are fucked. And I use that word because there's just no other word to you, because, like I was talking to a buddy last week, he was in Philly. So I grew up, I grew up right outside of Philly. This is my this is my close friend that I grew up with. And the course of a week he lost two cousins, once to suicide, college, one to overdose. College college age kids like taking their own lives or dying accidentally because they're going out to a party and storming a line of cocaine and really it's laced with fentanyl, you know. So like for me, I also have to understand that I'm not God, Like I have to know that, like I believe there's a God, but it's it's not me. Because when I start to think that I'm God and I'm gonna like save the world or whatever it is, that's where I find myself in a jackpot. When I really come two conversations and when like I'm working with families, and I keep my expectations where they're supposed to be historically, you know, we get them to a place where life's a little bit better and they have a shot to recover. But like, this thing that I'm dealing with is not going to get any better anytime soon if we don't start getting loud about it. Like one hundred thousand people overdose and over the course of a year, and like I think I read like eighty percent of those or due to fentanyl. And these are like young kids now vaping in high school hallways and it's laced with that ship and they're they're overdose and literally in high school halways. So like the game has changed a little bit for me, and like it's humbling because it's impossible to do my work perfectly. It's impossible, just like it's impossible for you to do your like you're gonna drop passes and miss blocks and miss assignments. I get. I think the difference between me and you is like if I fuck up, someone might die and I would have to carry that ship. And so like when I'm between the lines, it's it's dead serious, you know. And that's why, like at the beginning of this conversation, I've really come and that's really become clear to me recently, is that like, if I'm gonna have this platform, if I'm gonna have a voice, if people are gonna to some degree listen about what I had to say, then I better get loud and I better get really clear on this is what I want to do, and I want to make this my life's work, because if I if I do it half ass, it's going to come off that way. How close was it for you or maybe those that didn't listen to your your first episode where you actually told your whole story, but yeah, what was the bottom? How close was it for you? Darren and I both had close encounters with overdoses. Are you guys opiates? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Darren got a taste of the fent and All. I believe I was. I think God had my shit like way before that before it came or else. I'm one hundred percent confident I would not be here today. A fent and All was around when I was running and gunning and using the way that I was. Yeah, I mean it was close. I mean I got so I got so so August twenty eleven is when I hit my bottom. Uh at that time? What did it look like? Just like if you're listening and I struggle sometimes, Like I've been pretty forward with my story, but I think it's important to acknowledge before kind of answering your question that like it's really not the what Like I did the numbers the other day. We have sixty percent of the people in my programs in New York and like are there because the marijuana, like that ship is so potent today that it's different, like it's frying people's brains literally sixty percent. So like people get caught up and like I'll I'll like my buddy will be in rehab, or I'll put someone in treatment. They'll call me, like, dude, why did you put me in a place where it's aunt Like I just drink. There's a bunch of people doing heroin here. I'm like, bro, find find don't compare, you know, find some commonality in the in your story and your shared experience. But for me, man, yeah, August two thousand and eleven, I mean it was it was ugly. I was I was shooting dope, I was smoking crack. I was drinking around the clock. I was clipping out about two hundred and fifty pounds a day, or two hundred fifty pounds, not a day, two hundred fifty pounds. And I would you know, for sure, I wouldn't have made it if if the streets were the way that they are now. And I essentially ended up bottoming out on the streets of Camden, New Jersey, which is right over the bridge from Philadelphia. And like I had, I had a spiritual experience. I mean, that's just I don't know how else to say it. And I was struck with a willingness to kind of like take my life in a different direction. And it was this crazy story at a bank. You know that I've told a lot of times. Down there is that Rhonda Rhonda Jacket, Yeah, he did your homework. Bro, was somebody that when you say spiritual experience, yeah, someone listening might not even understand what you're talking about. What was your spiritual experience you're referring to? So I love this story and like I might, we were talking about three grown ass men before the show. We were talking about crying, and this is like the story that always gets me because I don't. I don't actually know why I was saved that day, but it was a hot summer day. I woke up that morning on a cardboard box, not because I didn't have a place to sleep, because I I passed out there the night before, whatever it was, and I just I wasn't seeing my family, and everyone there was missing persons, reports filed, and I just I was a mess. People thought I was gone, and so what happened is I And I'll keep it quick because I know we don't have a ton of time. But like I I my whole family was down the Jersey shore, and I zipped back up from um, this is prior to the run, so like they were all down there, and I zipped back up until like this is a week before I bottomed out and I was running around cam then I got arrested sleeping on the street. And so I wake up on this hot August morning and I got a ride into Cherry Hill, New Jersey, where my dad's office was, and I stole a check out out of his office because I was like, I needed money. I needed to cop like any lengths right, and I grabbed the check I filled it out. I went down to the PNC Bank and Camden and I walked in there and I had two drug dealers waiting outside the door because I was going to cast his check and we were gonna go do some business. And I hand this woman, Ronda Jackson, the check and she looked at me and like, if I could tell you the look she gave me, it was like she had seen a dead person. But even in that moment, I wasn't able to register like what was actually going on. And I sat there in the bank for like ten minutes, like waiting, thinking she was gonna cast her check, and then she came back out and she's like, hey, I just need a couple more minutes. Meanwhile, she had called my dad. It was a Saturday, mind you. She had called my dad. My dad on a Saturday morning, was at his office. He picked up a phone from an unknown number. What she doesn't do. He doesn't work on Saturday. He shouldn't have been there. He didn't know where else to be. And it was Ron and she said, I think you have I have your son here. You gotta get down here. And he hopped in his car and he flew down to Cannon, which is about a ten to twelve minute drive and she kept me there long enough for my old man to get to that bank. And he walked in the doors of that bank, and I'll never forget it, like this is where I get choked. And he was like, why does it goes? Like I never see my dad like that? And he put his arm on my arm and he said, son, were going home. And in that moment, and I still get it when I tell this story every time, like in that moment, I had a spiritual experience, something outside of my body came into me and I just said okay, and I rendered and I stopped fighting. And that was, you know, a couple of days before I ended up in treatment. And we walked out of that bank and I went home and hung out my parents for a couple of nights and drank and whatever. And they got me a bet at a treatment center out and in Pennsylvania, and I checked in there and finally ended up getting sober. And I love that story for so many reasons. But I love that story so much because we're still I'm still in touch with Rhonda. We go back and forth on social media. I went back and saw her after I got on the show and there's a post on my Instagram and me and her and I brought her flowers and like it was just She's just a beautiful human who just did the next right thing and literally saved my life and in turn, how many other lives has she saved because I went on to do this work and everything like that. And so they say, like your entire life can change in the blink of an eye, and she she did that for me. She did that for my family, you know, And I could never repay her for having that awareness to know that something was up. But that's for me, is a spiritual experience. Like I believe God the universe put her there in my path to save me and help my family. And when my dad walked through those stores, like the energy in that bank, it was like radiating. I mean, yeah, I got with that brief for a second, but I mean, just talk about spiritual experiences. I mean, I feel like the main reason we were given our own spiritual experiences so that we could be somebody that's a cog or a piece and somebody else receiving theirs, whether it's through like our story, whatever we share, whatever we put out there, it's that's what's really about. If we're talking about success, it's like, you know, if I can do anything to be a part of somebody else receiving the gift that I have, the truth that I know now, you know, that's what it's about. You know the big large book that we read out of it calls a spiritual experience a personality shift sufficient enough to bring about recovery. So it's basically like whatever was going on before that experience, everything about me changed from then. Like I remember the next the next day after IOD, and I'm like, I woke up that day with a different personality, Like okay, Like my personality before was I'm in control. I'm manipulating everything. I can pull the wool over anybody's eyes that I come across, and that's that's just is what it is. But that day I woke up with a different personality saying, I'm not in control of this anymore. I'm afraid, and I acknowledge my fear, so I'll give something to try. And that door was cracked open a little bit for And it's like, you know, if I the less I'm doing, the more room that God has to do in my life. It was the universe for you or the higher or your higher power, whatever it is, like that door was cracked a little bit by me, just that little bit of willingness and not allow God to step through and make something different happen and you know, make me a leader, maybe somebody a person of impact, you know. And it's like, you know, you're in a leadership position now. And it's like, I don't think anybody else is more equipped than people like us to really be leaders because you know, we didn't just pop up on the top of the structure like and nothing. We didn't have to go through anything like We've been at the bottom, we've been in the middle, we've been all these different places. So we have the ability to lead and really lead from an authentic stance, authentic perspective. So I just I try to keep that in the forefront of my mind when it's like I want to be quiet, or when I want to isolate and I don't want to you know, stand in my power, I try to remember that, you know, I got something to say because I have a spiritual experience something now I was looking for. The whole time, I didn't even know I was looking for. But now that I haven't, like I want to at least lay a tool kit in front of you to let you go after what that experience could be like for you. Oh, you're the best, brost. I mean. And I'm having like one of these like if you know, you know moments like this isn't going to resonate with everyone out there, but like the shit you just dropped, Like if you're in recovery and you're listening to this, like that's gonna fire you up. And one of my favorite, one of my favorite photos of all time. I don't evenink I ever talked to you about this, But is you signing the contract in the sprouted shirt? Bro? But because I get that, like that is such a symbolism of someone in recovery, because the biggest thing that these men and women struggle with in early recovery when they come into our programs and many programs across the country, is they don't they don't want to surrender, they don't want to get the sober job, they don't want to go pour the coffee because they're too big for that. They're too good for that. Right, you don't know who I am? And you went and you did that ship, bro, and you humbled yourself and like we're talking about a lot of serious shit today, but I just gotta say, like we gotta celebrate our wins too. And I just love like the symbolism, like forget the money. The money is cool, right, like you earned that, but like the symbolism and that photo with that shirt on, like I know that you were literally stocking shelves, like because there's someone in your life saying, like Darren, like just another day, bro, get another day, Get another day, right, And I've been there, you know, like and and that's just like that's why I keep showing up and keep seeking because like when you see someone else have a spiritual experience, when I see that photo, like I know what that really is, right, Like that's God, bro, That's like, we know that's God. Even in the morning of like the laundry stack, I have like a laundry service because I will let Mountain, I will let the Himalayan Mountains laundry pile up in my in my bathroom. But um, like I took the stack out, I guess the night before or putting it on shelf. Like I walk in the closet that morning and I see that shirt and then I hear something say, yep, that one. It's just like God is just in everything, if you, if you, if you let him, he'll show up there, yep, and if you allow him to. So um, yeah, yeah, we've talked about that. That's sure, because I had asked you about that. I was like, was that planned? Because I was genius? But then that's just another spiritual experience right there. And I think hearing your guys's stories on all of us and what you're sharing, I think the truth is like we're all just vessels, like a channel of love, right. And also too much that's given comes great responsibility. First, we've all been given a second chance at life. Recovery has saved us and given us a freedom beyond our wildest dreams. But then there's also the platform. I believe you were chosen to go on to The Bachelor, not to find the love of your life, because that didn't really happen, but you were given a platform and for Ronda Jackson. You know, angels are everywhere, and I believe that Ronda Jackson showed up in your life, most likely from some very very persistent prayer, probably from your mom and dad, but then also hearing your dads say we're going home, which he wasn't talking about your house. Well, I don't believe he was talking about your house. He was talking about coming home, coming to home, to the truth of who you are and finally surrendering. Wow, that's a bar dere, don't he It's like, you know and I don't. I don't know what your dad meant, but I I know exactly what he meant, and not necessarily in the word, but just that word home, because that's that's kind of why we're here. Come back, come back stories. We'll always talk about. Even in meditation and these practices and the work we're doing, it's constantly coming home, coming back. Like our body knows where home is. It's our minds, these crazy ass minds that take us down these roads that make us feel so disconnected and often homeless. But we have practices that bring us back. And your practices might look different than my practices. But this has come up a couple of times since the Mark Ross podcasts, and when I asked him what self love was and he said, ritual's habits and routines, and you talked about that, like that is it. It's coming back to those practices, sticking with those practices, keeping the promises you make to yourself that you can keep coming back home to where the heart is, and how easily we can forget, especially in a world of just all this distraction being thrown at us. So these tools are like so so important, and the tools only work if we use them. Yeah, he was definitely talking about a different type of home, and that home for me is just like it's love. And I feel like that's why, more so than others, like I really have compassion and empathy for other human being, especially ones that make mistakes, because if I wasn't afforded the opportunity to make mistakes and come back from it, then I wouldn't be here. Like I had people in my life who said it was ok, it's okay, you know, and I you know, and this might be I think, do you guys have Mike Vicklin? Did you have him one? Yeah, not released yet, but it will have been released by the time everybody has heard that. So I mean, I use that example all the time. Like he I don't condone anything he did, but he was given an opportunity and a decision to come back from something that was like would have ruined and ruined him for many, like you know, years or whatever it was, but like to see what he's done with that opportunity, Like that's the stuff that fires me up. And you know, whether we're talking about recovery or other things in life, like when you when you're able to acknowledge the love that the world has given you and then in turn kind of like share that with others. I believe that's why we're here to come back, no doubt, it wouldn't have been fun to just live this fucking olla life. Like just about to say, like people we talk about being the best versions of ourselves and growing and changing, is like if there's no challenge to overcome, there's there's no drive to get to that point. There's nothing that's gonna really pull that out of us or take us through the situations that give us the perspective or the sense of urgency and the desperation to want to be that better version of ourselves. Otherwise, you know, I said all the time, like me, at my core default like I'm looking for pleasure, I'm looking for comfort. I'm looking for the easiest role possible to whatever I want. I'm not looking for the tough role I'm not looking to be challenged. I'm not looking to be broken down to be built back up with a new foundation, Like that's just not what I'm looking for. But you know, that's where if people are watching the show, like we're not just like sharing stories to be heard for entertainment, Like we're trying to help you find that in yourself, find that desperation, find that sense of urgency to get you to where you want to go. And that's just not happening without adversity. I'm sorry, Like we gotta just break that to you right now, Like, if you don't have that thing that's going to break you down to that point to where you truly have to make a decision and your spirit has to be tested in that in that way, in that fire, like, it's just not going to happen. So it's about coming back. It's about coming back home. It's about coming back from adversity. It's about coming back to your center when you're distracted, Like it's it's all about just returning and responding. If I were to put it in any way, who knew that the title or the name of our podcast would have so many different meanings and so much depth beyond just the actual comeback story, which is why we started this podcast, to remind everybody that they have a comeback story. We knew everybody loved to comeback story, but everybody has one. And so to have people on a platform where most people might put someone like you or Darren or the guests that we've had on a pedestal like they don't have shit, and so when we have them on to share their shit, that person listening that thinks they're the only one going through it, immediately it bankrupts that story of I'm alone. Nobody understands because that was the story I was telling myself. I'm sure on that cardboard box that's the exact story you were telling yourself. I'm unique, Yeah, I'm the special snowflake you don't know. And then right, I'm gonna keep coming back. I got no choice. I think it's where it's where our freedom lies. I want to circle back real quick to this idea of honesty because I feel like, thank God that acronym we've got in the program of how honesty open minded and willing. But it feels to me like in my own life and then seeing people that maybe can't quite get one hundred percent honest, that the level of our freedom is going to be determined, Like we can't truly be free, one hundred percent free if we're not going to be one hundred percent honest. And that honesty starts with getting honest with ourselves because the truth is like when we go back to habits, routines and rituals, like we can skip out on those habits, routines and rituals, the self care things that like keep our cups full. Nobody's watching, but you're watching, We're watching, right, And so just to make sure that we are staying honest and staying true. But I think I guess I would just ask you, like how important has that role of honesty been for you in your walk and recovery. It's the number one most important thing to me. And if I sat here and told you that I don't lie or I haven't lied, I'd be lied, right. So when I do choose to lie, no matter how far down the scale, I kind of want to go with it. It always has to do with what the other person's going to think about me. Who I'm sure no, but he can relate to that listening, and I hate it. And there's been moments now, Like you get better with it because you get trained, right, like where you I Like, someone will ask me something and I want to lie, but I'll catch myself like going like to do that just to kind of But I hate it. I hate it. I hate it so much, and it's just it's all wrapped up in my own ship and what what I think that other person in the world is going to say about me or think about me? Because then if they really knew, then they would know that I'm a bad guy, And like the story just goes from there, right, it just goes from there. I feel like as you're sharing this, and as you shared earlier, that honesty is your gift, Like there's an East Coast vibe to you, like that honesty, straightforwardness, and so I think that's just part of your gift, right, Maybe that honesty was how how you hum. I don't want to say one the show, but like that that just like being true, being real, being authentic. And I feel like you probably feel that when you're out of alignment with that so much more because honesty is like the essence of who you are. So when you're being a little bit dishonest, you're probably feeling it more than most would. That contrast is great information. Yeah, I mean, I mean I think this example comes to mind for me and it's so stupid, but it's just it just it just goes to tell you. So whatever. Like I'll say, six months ago, one of my friends hit me up and she like introduced me to this girl that does like some social media work, and so I started working and she's awesome, like like she was ever to listen to this, like she knows how I feel about it. She's great, but her whole thing was TikTok, right, Like her whole thing was TikTok, and and she's like, we can get this going for you and it can be good because you'll have and like so I knew it didn't like feel pure to me. It didn't feel right. So she would come in and like I got one of the guys that worked me here in the studio like and so like he would even be there, like she coming like once a week and like do these little videos, and like it was sucking my soul. It was sucking my soul. It was dishonest because like it just wasn't aligned with what I wanted to do. And wanted to be. And I'm not to say like I couldn't put something out there meaningful on TikTok that would feel good to people and maybe resonate, maybe help someone, and that would be that would be awesome, right, Like I'm not saying it's not a cool platform, but for me, the way that we were doing it, it just didn't align with who I was. And I got to literally a place where I was like obsessing over it, like why am I doing this? And I finally like got the balls to pick up the phone and just be like this has nothing to do with you. I want to make it very clear, but like this is not me, Like it's not me. I don't care about whatever, it's just not you know. And so there's just been so many examples like that in my life that like I know when I'm not being true to myself, whether it's with my word or my actions, and that is what throws me out of alignment. And then I go and do shit that might seem harmless, but to me spiritually it'll bankrupt me. Yeah, it just like it ignites like that war within once again. Like it just like it's it's on and popping and it's like war within to maintain peace on the outside. And it's like, what kind of trade is that? That's not even like if you sit there and look at it, if you if you watch somebody else do, it's like, that's not even fair to yourself. But I mean you can I can find myself in that position too, of just like you know, and it's always like you said, it's always tired of what somebody else thinks about me. Because even for me, like the little things where lying showed up, it's like, um, if I know I can't be somewhere, sometimes I'll still be like I think I can, Like you know, I don't want to. I don't want that the person now because it all comes back to me and like you said, like and and me worrying about what people think about me comes back to the beliefs about myself because somewhere deep down in the air, I still think like I'm a fraud. I still think like I don't deserve these things, you know, And it's just like that whole that whole cycle, and it's like, uh, yeah, I want to be I want to be free, like I don't want to be Like you know, we talked about the phone earlier, like I don't wanna. I'm not on my phone much, but I still will reach back for it for times, and it's like I don't want to have to do that. I don't want have to reach for my phone ever. And it's like, what's it gonna what's it gonna take to get there? And it's like digging all the way back, and it's to those beliefs. Man, it's still it's to those beliefs because I don't I don't tell somebody that I can be somewhere to impress them or to not make them look at me a certain way if I don't think they're going to see me as the fraud or not enough person that I see myself as in those small moments. It's not it's not dictating my life, but it's still it still shows up. It's still you know, strolls across My brain strolls across and I and I see it, and it's, uh, it's something that gotta do it. Well. I can say just working with both of you as whatever coaching clients has more being into that bro you coach both of us. The relationship that I have with you guys, is so much more meaningful than that. But I think to acknowledge the both of you because I feel like when our internal worlds can match our external worlds, like when what's going on in the inside truly matches what's happening on the outside, which are we ever really going to completely get to that point? Probably not, but to see the shifts, which no punting, tending, but that's like the name of my coaching program, to see the shift of where you guys are at now. Man, it's just so cool. It's so cool to see the evolution and really using most importantly, just using this platform for something greater, because like, these are the conversations we want to have. You said, ninety eight percent of the time you're talking to Darren, it's not about football. Ninety eight or ninety nine percent of the time. This is what we're talking about on here, because it's so much more meaningful than results, statistics or performance. Like this is the juice and honestly, selfishly, this is kind of what sets us free and gives us purpose, and it really just comes back to just being a vessel of love, getting out of the way and just sharing the love the least we can do the least I can do. What do you got to say to close out? Zach? I got? I mean these conversations. I mean like and it's like it's funny because I feel like we could sit and do this for hours, and this is the stuff I geek out on today and like I mean it, like I hope, my hope, right, like if I have a hope, which is like my takeaway that there's you know, someone out there that got turned onto this podcast because they're a fan of Darren's or whatever it is, and unbeknownst to him, like we were gonna launch into this conversation about what we just talked about, which is really in a lot of ways like the meaning of life, right like in purpose and passion and what fuels us and recovery and all the stuff that we love so much. And you know, and that person struggling and then they reach out for help, that makes this whole thing worth worth it. Right, So my hope is that someone out there listen today and really feels like, and I don't give a shit if you're struggling with drugs and alcohol, mental health or something completely different, but that you can reach out and you're worth it and you're loved and it's possible because I'm an example of that. You're an example of that. You're an example of that. And so the thing I always say is just keep going, you know. That's all that's like, that's all I can do is keep going. And there's gonna be I'm gonna get punched in the face. I'm gonna get back up, and you know, I kind of believe there's kind of like two types of people in this world, like people that have been punched in the face and people that haven't, you know, like and if you've been punched in the face, like you know, like all right, it's on, you know, and so like when that happens in life now today it kind of feels good because I know, like more work needs to needs to be done. I gotta sharp it up the tools, like I eat my fists up. I gotta play defense, whatever it is. So I love you guys, man. This is uh, this is the best connecting with you guys like this. I love you too, du I love you too, man. Thanks for coming back for a round two. Thank you. All right, we're out, everybody. What's up? Comeback stories, family, It's Donnie dropping in here. So did you know that Darren and E's relationships started by being his personal development, mindfulness and mindset coach. I want to let you know about both my one on one coaching program, The Shift, and my group Mastermind Elevate your Purpose. These coaching programs are specifically designed for people who are ready to take the next step in their purpose and level up their career, the personal finances, and have more connected, deep and meaningful relationships. My gift and part of my purpose is to help others take that next step in leveling up their lives so that they can have a greater impact on the lives of others, create success that sustainable yet evolves and grows, and help build a legacy that will outlive your life. If this is calling you, just go to Donnie Starkins dot com and apply for either one of my programs.